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Jeff in Calgary comment
#1
From HERE


Quote:Here is the thing seaice1, human produced CO2 can not heat the surface. It can only heat the troposphere. The theory is that the heated troposphere would then result in increased surface heat. If the surface is heating up without the troposphere also heating up, the change can not be caused by human produced CO2. Surface measurements are just a red herring.
It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor must preside at our assemblies.

–William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1952
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#2
Richard Verney


Quote:This is a point I often put to Nick when he correctly states that satellites and the land thermometer data set measure different things.

They do measure different things, but since the AGW is a top down effect, one would expect the first signs to be evident in the satellite atmosphere measurements, and that the trend of warming in the land based thermometer data set ought not to be significantly more than the trend seen in the satellite atmosphere measurements.
It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor must preside at our assemblies.

–William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1952
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#3
Quote:Jeff: You are correct. The only thing that heats is the sun (well geothermal too, but in a trivial amount). The sun heats the surface directly. The energy radiates at a rate that is a function of the temperature of the hot side and the temperature of the cold side. Radiant energy transfer is always a net from hot side to cold side. For the surface, the cold side is the atmosphere and space. For the atmosphere, the cold side is space. So you are correct. The atmosphere does not warm up the surface. The atmosphere, which is warmed by the radiation from the surface, causes the surface to be hotter than if there were no atmosphere in order to radiate the energy it absorbs. A well known thing in energy transfer. My heat transfer text refers to it as radiative properties of participating media. My heat transfer text also asserts that this reaches a maximum at about 500 bar centimeters concentration of carbon dioxide (well, an asymptote that is nearly parallel to the x axis. It is always increasing). That is about 800 to 900 ppm in our atmosphere. Roughly. The reason the troposphere is not heating at the rate it “should” is that the estimates of equilibrium sensitivity are too high. This is supported by the fact that each new paper seems to drop the sensitivity.
John Eggert
It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor must preside at our assemblies.

–William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1952
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